Terrorist Attacks

[mresell]

For most people I think it goes to quality of life. Even here where we think we are free we are not truely. We are taxed/regulated/controlled to the hilt with little to show for it. We have along way to go. Think of the parents in Texas who had their child taken and put in foster care because they didn't think chemo was the way to treat her. Now I am sure a sick child is better off ripped from her family and placed in foster care. The parents can't even decide proper care for their child. That's not freedom...and it happens all the time here because governments have gotten used to thinking for you and many believe that is ok. Our children are tagged with a number from birth.
We have a very high cost of living with way too much drug use...prescription or otherwise. Our governments have been getting worse for along time so I can see how someone from elsewhere may percieve them as overbearing and threatening...because they are. It's just that everyday people are NOT the government.

[antic]

It's all relative... our governments aren't that overbearing when you consider that citizens of North Korea are arrested for simply talking to foreigners. Or that Chinese citizens are executed (as in the recently leaked video) simply for helping others to leave the country. Or that women in Pakistan are regularly beaten, raped and murdered for the crimes of their brothers or husbands, according to widely accepted tribal law. Or the many that starve in Africa because their governments spend money on arms instead of agriculture.

We, in the relatively affluent West, living our relatively free and peaceful lives, have much to be thankful for. But of course that's no reason to be complacent for we do, as you point out, have our own worries which are also important. But it's just as important to remember where we may have been born, but for the grace of god, or chance.

It's always an interesting question, where does one draw the line between being free and being protected? The more we want to be "safe", the more we invite control, regulation, and allow people to make decisions for us.. because we want them to ensure our safety.

Can we ask government to ENSURE our safety, without losing a measure of freedom? The more responsibility we give to government, the more right we give them to make decisions for us.

But are we responsible enough *ourselves* to be trusted with our own safety? In communities which grow more insular and private and "safe" each year; where neighbours don't know each other's names or share in community life, where is the acceptance of responsibility for safety of the community?

There has to be a balance struck between law and regulation from outside - civil authority and goverment - and from INSIDE - community cohesion, social awareness, personal responsibility for one's community.

We only have ourselves to blame if we sit at home and do nothing in our communities and then complain that all the decisions are being made for us. Or ignore our neighbours and community life, and then complain when we don't feel safe in our own homes or walking down the street.

The onus is on us, as citizens, to keep an eye on what goes on in the world around us and take a measure of responsibility for our own quality of life and the rights we feel we, and others, deserve.

[DigitalSkyline]

Yeah bro...

Our government is not anything close to the government that was put in place by our forefathers... freedom is only for the rich these days. Its a sad state of affairs, really. We are a police state no matter what they try and sell us.

About 10 years ago here in the Detroit area some people organized and brought back a taste of the freedom our parents once had... The Woodward cruise... the first year there were around 100,000 people and everyone cruised Woodward in their cool hot rods, lowriders etc.. (no harm in that right)... of course showing off your hot rod will mean burns outs, mini races etc.. it went all day, all night... until everyone decided to go home. There were no fights... nothing bad happened.. all fun. I actually felt how much fun freedom can be, when people act responsibly. A key right of the land, the right to peacefully assemble.

The next year... the police came in force... basically enforcing a curfew of midnight by shutting down Woodward at that time. Most people defied them and kept cruising anyways, they didn't have enough cops to stop us. But we weren't hurting anyone... just driving... again where's the harm in that?

The next year, everyone started cruising a couple nights ahead of the scheduled event, to get around the police enforcements... so the next year cops started showing up then as well, but many times larger in numbers.

Now it has become a highly commercialized event... and every single year the police presence grows... They ticket anyone squealing tires and if you want to cruise in the designated cruiser lanes, you must first buy a permit. They now shut down Woodward at 9 pm on the cruise night. They have literally 1000's of cops on everything from motorbikes to swat vehicles and at the end of the night they drive up and down Woodward in a military style show-of-force demonstration of "ok you've had your fun, now go home or else." I never felt more mistrust of the powers that be then I did the night I saw that. I didn't even go last year... it used to be something I looked forward to.

They want to show that they control you, no matter how free you think you are, you're not free in this country. Not that I think there's anywhere that is better off... Canada maybe. I know they have still have some of the freedoms we used to enjoy. I guess at least I'm still free to write this... but you know that is being cracked down on as well... freedom of the press (but we'll decide who qualifies as a journalist)

Anything you do nowadays you need to ask permission first... buy a license, a permit, or pay big fines... maybe even go to jail. You can't even light fireworks off in your backyard here, at least nothing bigger then a sparkler.

The terrorists are only making matters worse for us... the government doesn't trust us.... why do we still trust our government? Mass media has been programming the masses and they are mostly pacified now. No one leaves the couch long enough to see whats really going on... and the government walks all over us.

Sucks... but theres really not much "we the people" can do to change it as individuals. Not until people get organized and rise up... which may never happen. No one wants to sacrifice, because instead of land of the free, home of the brave, we've become, land of the short-leashed, home of the "but who cares". Apathy rules the day.

[antic]

There's no need for people to "rise up". Just to get better educated, learn about the world around them and be active in their community for the betterment of all.

Take the Woodward cruise... I imagine there was little consultation bettween the participants in the cruise and the surrounding community? People get intimidated by large gatherings, especially noisy ones. Police get called, police are defied, things get bigger than they need to.

I don't know the details of the event, but perhaps if the community and authorities were first introduced to the concept, got a measure of comfort that nothing sinister or lawbreaking was going on, that the community wasn't going to be harassed... you gotta look at it from other people's point of view as well.

Bikie rallies are permitted here in Perth, but they still have to let everyone know first, and they still get watched by police. You can't deny that some "hoodlum" elements cause a lot of trouble, even if it's not you. If you want to blame someone, blame the ones that make a bad name for the majority that just want to enjoy themselves.

In any community, or interest group, the group as a whole should take responsibility for the few that spoil it for everyone else. Most bikies are excellent guys and girls... but we're all still wary of a bikie gang riding through, becuase we hear what the bad ones can do, and it's not pretty. Not pretty at all. The rest of them should weed out the troublemakers if they want to be seen in a better light, or live with the stigma.

I'm was a goth a long time ago.. It's all about the music, the people, and I guess the fashion too. No-one worships the devil or even so much as drinks in public. But geez, did we get some sh*t from the police and from passers-by. Nobody wanted us around. Why? Becuase people feel scared of things they don't know, or things they think are threatening. It's understandable... nowdays goth culture is no big news, mostly an excuse for people to dress in multi-storey platform shoes.

If you want the Woodward cruise to be seen in a better light, work WITH the community. Do a Cruise for Charity... a children's hospital fundraiser, that sort of thing. If you give something back to the community, they will give you something too. More freedom. Try it.. allow people to trust you. It'll work a charm.

Freedom, like trust, is earned; it shouldn't just be expected for nothing.

[mresell]

I am not as concerned about large gatherings...I can see where those can be misconstrued as a mob. But you do have to start where you are, as an individual...to try to meet your ideals w/ what you have. I don't want the government doing anything for me. They should stick w/ the basics our constitution laid out. Anything beyond that they do worse than poorly.
Many parents in the us are having to home school their children which some states almost don't allow. I just find it scary that there are govt organizations for everything. I have known people that had to take their kids out of school because the school insisted that the child stay on ridalin or they were calling social services. They had to legally protect themselves, but got their child off of drugs and homeschooled. He is a whole new person and went up 4 reading levels. This same person pays taxes that goes to the school, but the school says they cannot consider having access to school services or programs unless the child goes to the school at least halftime. I know of many cases like this w/ schools and social services. In other areas you are basically forced to treat your child medically with what you are told to even tho you have to sign a liability waiver. Never mind that your child can have life altering affects...you will be liable not to mention you probably won't have health care to cover it anyway.

Honestly Antic, I hope it is not like that in Australia. You saw the big fallout over Steve Erwin having his baby with him while he was feeding a crocodile. If he was in this country I bet he would have had charges brought against him.

The tax codes are a nightmare...altho the UK may be worse...being one of the original tax kings.
Heck the IRS doesn't even understand their own rules they get it wrong over 60% of the time. More money is spent to collect the tax than it is worth. But business's and individuals pay that price.

What a business that would be. Hand someone a blank receipt, then tell them if they don't get it right you will charge them more?

I do think we have to take positive action...everyday. The community is important. But more people do need to follow their own path...not the one path laid out for them. You are right others are much worse off. I think that just shows how far we have to go. I do think freedom has to be fought for...what is god given man attempts to control.

Honestly, I could go on, but it just isn't healthy....

[Altair]

I'm glad to see that we are now attacking our governments. We're not free? Give me a break. All you need to be truely free in this country (USA), is learn how to work with the systems. It's not tough, just time consuming.

If you can't work with the systems that have been put in place, then it's very simple. Find some place better. Good luck with that.

I'm not saying the the government doesn't overstep it's bounds now and again (or constantly), but we DO have control over it. Again we must unite not divide!

[DigitalSkyline]

Antic ... the injustices against parents are just one slice of the big ole American pie. Being a parent myself its really upsetting... not so much because of what has happened to others, but how I would react being put in a similar situation. The clamps just get tighter it seems. I would do anything to protect my child and if someone tried to take my child they better take my life first. straight up. Please try and tell me I need to drug my child... I'll bring the game GTA to life. And yeah your right, I should chill because when you really take a look around, how could you not be angry? I could get an ulcer haha...

The law system is just as convoluted as the IRS tax code... you have federal laws, state laws, county laws, city and township laws and ordnances and even some community rules and regulations. The list grows daily because congresses exist to create laws... but they rarely remove them. Luckily, the common police officer only knows the laws they told to enforce (like speeding)... depending on the area you live that may range from the full gambit, to only violent crimes.

Visit Detroit some time you can basically get away with anything. I could take you to spots where people gather 1000's deep and street race... right in front of cops who are powerless to stop it, they call in reinforcements and by the time they arrive the race has moved to alternate locations.

See that is the problem, there are so many laws, supposedly to protect us from ourselves, not only are they unenforceable, but if I want to take risks in life, for instance street racing, and I end up dead... then you know what, that risk was mine to take... thats what freedom is all about. We can't make the world out of nerf balls... but maybe we can just grow some (err balls).

Anyways, Go north to the suburbs, the law gets thicker and they actually have time to enforce things like wearing a helmet while riding a bike (or driving while black). Please again protect my mellon from the dirt it came from... and since I'm too stupid to do it myself, take money out of my pockets because you know that will teach me. You after all know whats best for me and even how to better spend my money.

Altair... to say we have control over our government is the big lie they sell us... Do you really think you have control over our government, with your 1 vote... really? Even when the deck is stacked (pick from the lessor of 2 evils)? Now maybe you are better off then I, but I doubt you can afford the millions it costs to line the pockets of enough politicians to effect change in any real way. Money is the only thing that buys you freedom in this country... if thats what you mean by working in the system.. then yeah we agree on that. Maybe you're happy with that but I see that as a disgrace.

The pursuit of happiness is what were are all here for... governments that abuse their powers is what our peoples have tried to get away from... where are the checks and balances when they arrest you and take your kids because one fell and got a bruise on their arm... and someone somewhere decides its in the best interest of the child. That is not freedom.

There are many other things but theres not enough time to write it all down. Besides... I just need to chill... you know, don't worry, and be happy with the cards I've been dealt. Besides there are greater evils, such as terrorists, to focus on. lol.

[Altair]

"if I want to take risks in life, for instance street racing, and I end up dead... then you know what, that risk was mine to take... thats what freedom is all about. "

Ok, but how did you end up dead? Did you go smashing through a populated apartment building? Or perhaps you smashed into a person or people just picking up a pizza close to where you were racing? You can risk YOUR life if you wish, but you CANNOT risk other peoples lives.

There are places to race, and city streets are not one of them. A person has enough intelligence to control themselve. However, PEOPLE as a whole are not very responsible. Have you heard of something called the MOB mentallity? One person goes off, and the rest will usually follow.

You live in a very small world if you believe that money is the only thing that gets things done. It helps, but you don't HAVE to have money to get things done. My one vote makes little difference. However, the MOB mentallity works both ways. If you can start the ball rolling for change, then other people will join in.

You and I agree in one area though. CPS needs to be regulated better. The choice to treat your childs cancer with very unpleasant treatments should be entirely up you. I'm not sure how that particular case is any of their business.

[DigitalSkyline]

You're right about risking others lives... but these races I'm talking about happen at like 3 O'Clock in the morning... on industrial parkways in arguably the worst city in america... the only people around are there for one reason. I don't even race any more, that was something I did when I was younger.

Still my point was only that there are too many laws, you can't legislate morality any more then you can protect people from their own stupidity. Sometimes people do stupid things and people they hurt themselves... you have to die some day it might as well be doing something you love and to die knowing that you had the freedom to live your life without the interference of some rich guy on capital hill.

Everything with legislation is a slippery slope... and they all have to do with limiting the freedoms we are supposed to hold in such high regard. Where is the common sense? Where is the justice?

Anyways I've typed myself in to a corner here... a little air please!!!!!

[antic]

I guess another example of the tricky issue of medical care is Terry Schiavo - the "brain-dead" woman who's last wishes were to be left to die in peace, but who was force-fed by tube.

How much more controlling can you get? And all because we're afraid of this thing called death, as if it's something "wrong", something to be fought tooth and nail. But it's being fought beyond all reason now... and Bush's right-wing evangelist views are not a small contributor to that sort of thing. He thinks he's right, because of what HE believes in (and the neo-conservatives around him whispering in his ear). Why do you think the President got involved in the Terry Schiavo case? It became an issue of faith. His views against theirs. That's definitely not what government is supposed to be about.

Check this out for a laugh:
http://bush2004.com/greensheet/gs_11.html

The pro-life argument is the same... liberal moderates saying "free choice", right-wing Christians saying "we know best, you're wrong and we hate you for it". Again, Bush gets involved, because it affronts his own beliefs as a right-wing Christian. Suddenly he's trying to force everyone to conform to his views.

It's interesting to note that the more religious people are, the quicker they are to hate. A very strange phenomenon, considering most religions preach love and tolerance.

It's about personal choice - if someone wants to hate, or to think the world is corrupt and against them, they'll find an excuse to do so, whether in religion, a cult, or whatever.

That's true freedom... the freedom to control your own destiny in your own heart. Apart from that, we will never be "free". You aren't free to run out into the forest and live as a hermit. You'll probably die. Is that nature imposing itself on you? Yep. Silly argument I know, but in essence you aren't free to do or say anything you want to, because there will always be someone around to disagree with you, denounce you or try to stop you. That's just life, and culture. One just has to accept that and work with it.

That's what rules and regulations are supposed to be for... because when it comes down to it, individuals are usually reasonable but the mob mentality is very dangerous indeed, and most people are easily led. That's just the sort of animal we are - social animals, which is both wonderful and difficult at the same time. But, as a group, we do need someone to uphold the law and simply say "come on guys, that's enough now" when situations get out of hand.

But to get back to the point.. I agree that there are way too many rules and regulations. Here in Perth, public liability costs have recently been the death of many simple community activities... too much chance of someone cutting their finger and suing someone. We are in danger of going down the US road in terms of excessive litigation. Great for lawyers, but there's a point where it gets, like tube-feeding a dead person, very sad and ridiculous.

[antic]

Actually it's very interesting that a conversation about terrorism has brought up the issue of personal freedoms. I daresay many people are worrying about the exact same things... how our basic social freedoms will be curtailed more than they have been already. What will happen when people feel too hemmed in? Will we end up accepting it for the sake of "feeling safe"? En masse, we probably will, but there will always be those trying to remind us of what we've lost, and thank god for that... may peaceful dissent never be silenced, otherwise we'll end up like China!