Suggestion for Challenge/Response anti-spam system on servers

[tkraffty]

Hi - just wanted to suggest another value-add server component Vortech might want to consider adding to their services...

Merak Instant Anti Spam
http://www.icewarp.com/Products/Merak_Instant_AntiSpam/
(FYI -- I believe these guys also built SpamAssassin, but not sure)

The reason for this suggestion is simple: Our current anti-spam filters just aren't working anymore, and I'm experiencing and hearing reports from clients of more flooded Inboxes than ever before. I'm guessing it took all of about four months for those spamming bastards to figure out all the "rules" of all such FILTER-BASED systems, and they've started getting around those filters (for me, to the tune of about 300 spams per day)...

It seems to me that the only real way to stop spammers alltogether is to use some sort of "CHALLENGE/RESPONSE" system instead of (or in addition to) the filter-based ones...

I'm already telling everyone I know to use third-party services (like mailblocks.com) if they can... but also wanted to suggest the above link to the folks at Vortech, as this anti-spam company appears to have a reasonably priced unlimited-domain server license that I'm sure most all of your customers and resellers would love the option of using...

Anyway... just a suggestion, as I'm sure we're all pretty tired of those spammer bastards. Since we can't burn them at the stake or pull out their toenails with pliers, I'm just trying to think of other services that would make Vortech (and me of course) that much more enticing to potential customers.

Cheers,

TK

[CelticRaven]

how about one of these?

http://www.barracudanetworks.com

Barracuda won't be able to do much more than we are... Besides, spam filtering is an optional service, and filtering our mail through one of these would take out the user control.

Tkraffty, that link you sent me goes to some windows software.. Not much we can do with that... but great idea for others.

As for Challenge/Response... That simply doubles our mail traffic and again, would have to be optional. Persnoally, I dont think its a good system. Plenty of people (including myself) simply ignore those responses. Nobody wants to have to send two emails (hours apart) to tell you something.

[CelticRaven]

will one of these ever really work someday for everybody? is this really the answer or is it all just snakeoil...or a temp solution?

yahoo domain keys
aol sender policy framework
microsoft caller id for email

[tkraffty]

Oops - ya... just realized I picked the wrong link from their site... so here's the direct homepage link - http://www.icewarp.com/ - Their server product should be somewhere in that list...

As far as how well this sort of challenge/response system works... I just signed up with MailBlocks.com today to try out a third-party service... Took an hour or so to update several of my mailboxes, forwards and configure the corresponding settings in their systems, but I've already noticed a HUGE improvement (even better than SpamAssassin with the Rules dialed down to "1")...

I added a bunch of addresses to my Address Book so MailBlocks doesn't even bother them with a challenge, but for everyone else, seriously, they only need to confirm who they are ONE TIME... Someone mentioned a doubling of e-mail traffic - which might be true for the first message only, but after that, MailBlocks and other similar systems just channel messages from a confirmed address straight-through without any other notifications...

The normal SPAM from just one of my accounts today went from about 75 down to only 1 received message. But man, if *this* doesn't work after a while, I swear I'm camping out on the white house lawn with a big picket sign

[Vantage]

Originally Posted by tkraffty

Oops - ya... just realized I picked the wrong link from their site... so here's the direct homepage link - http://www.icewarp.com/ - Their server product should be somewhere in that list...

Their server software is Windows Based. Still not an option for us. It would take 3 to 4 times the number of servers to handle our traffic if we were to move to windows.

[mresell]

Originally Posted by Vantage

Their server software is Windows Based. Still not an option for us. It would take 3 to 4 times the number of servers to handle our traffic if we were to move to windows.

Amen to that...I noticed how many windows servers you have had to add compared to unix.

[tkraffty]

Oops again... Completely missed the platform (apologies for advocating another M$-based app

Anyway, the original suggestion still stands... SPAM is totally out of control, and the most prolific spammers have already figured out how to get around virtually most kinds of filtering, whether server or desktop-based.

Some sort of option to provide a challenge/response system would be a highly valuable resource here... Either way, I'm signing up as an affiliate with the third-party providers, 'cause I think this is the next wave.

And I'm pretty sure most people will have reached their last straw if those @$%&#@^%$# spamming bastards figure out how to get around this system... People just can't take any more of this...

[Carly]

There are several different reasons why Challenge/Response isn't the best solution for a hosting environment. It actually triples the network activity for legitimate mailings because the mail is received, a challenge is sent, a response is sent back.

Though it "only" doubles for the challenges that go unanswered since no response is sent back. Think about all of the spam you used receive. Even though a legitimate mailing only needs to respond *once*, spammers are out there spoofing new email addresses, sending from different sources, etc, constantly. Each of those spam messages you're no longer receiving in your inbox are still hitting the mail server and a challenge is being sent back, therefore doubling network traffic.

And think about those CR systems that aren't setup to check the origin of the message (which I believe are most) against the "From" address that are flooding some innocent email user who had their email address spoofed with challenges. That might also upset other hosting providers who wouldn't appreciate the challenges coming from our network to theirs and increasing their network traffic. It could quite potentially be reported as spam as well.

[tkraffty]

Just a follow-up in case anyone's still reading this thread...

I totally understand the possible issues noted here, in using a SERVER-SIDE challenge/response system... Seems ironic and sucky though, that those damn spammers have created an environment where it's difficult even to implement protective measures. Those bastards!

But as far as client-side or third-party services go however, ...just wanted to recommend "MAILBLOCKS.COM" or "SPAMARREST.COM" again...

I signed up for a Mailblocks account last week, and finally got the remaining accounts configured last night... This morning, I clicked my Outlook "Send/Receive" button, and saw absolutely ZERO spams arrive to my Inbox! ZERO!!!!!!!! That's the first time in many many years I've seen that happen, and a huge relief from the past year or so, getting upwards of several hundred spams PER DAY... Simply amazing. Now, maybe I can actually go on vacation for a couple days without having to worry about my mailboxes getting filled and rejecting legitimate messages...

FYI (just some tips) -- (1.) For the few addresses I have which are NOT on any spammers' lists (which I use for some newsletter, commerce and automated mailing accounts), I've routed those directly to another mailbox which I can use directly, bypassing the Mailblocks system. (2.) Rather than configure each of my local addresses for Mailblocks, I set-up one Forward account (which goes to Mailblocks), and I pointed several dozen of my problem addresses to the Forwarding account. Both of these steps just save some configuration time and also leaves you more slots you can use for your really troubled and/or dedicated addresses. (Mailblocks gives you 10 slots I believe)

...Well, that's all for my $0.02

TK

[generic]

U have no fear about the challenge turning away possible customers trying to contact you via email?

For a non business account it sounds great.
For a business account I would be worried about losing potential clients.

[tkraffty]

Originally Posted by tracewebspace

U have no fear about the challenge turning away possible customers trying to contact you via email?

For a non business account it sounds great.
For a business account I would be worried about losing potential clients.

Yes, I do have a very slight concern, but (1.) every one of my corporate clients I talk to is having exactly the same problem with SPAM as I am, so I'm counting on the fact that they may understand why I've resorted to this system, and (2.) Mailblocks provides an option so you can add your own message to the challenge e-mails, which I used to explain why, from a business perspective, I opted to use this service (increasing administrative overhead, etc.). Again, this is an issue I'm hearing mirrored from all my clients, so I'm confident that potential clients will understand.

Lastly, my concern that this might turn away a customer is outweighed by the very real possibility that I was outright missing potential customer inquiries before... Due to the huge volume of spams I was receiving, plus the good chance my desktop and server-side spam filters could be mistakenly triggered by legitimate messages, it's actually more likely that I've already lost some business without Mailblocks, than I might lose with it...

[Carly]

You might want to make sure that if you're sending out using MailBlocks that it's not being blocked by ISPs you would want to send email to, such as Road Runner:

"The "big problem" I had with Mailblocks is that there are some providers that have blocked Mailblocks from sending in."
- 6/1/04: http://www.nextgenelectronics.com/mailblocks.shtml

I'm not sure that you would use their mail sending features if using it just to filter your incoming mail. But if it's sending the challenge back through its own services, it may be blocked by the ISP it wants a response from.

[admin]

I my self have always liked the idea for Challenge/Response anti-spam system on our servers problems are these.

1. You know someone with a business would turn it on at some point and lose email. :Please:
2. For a business it does not seem to be the best thing.
3. Load, it could put more load on the systems.
4. Bandwidth it would cost a lot more to send back another email to a fake email then the it's really worth.


Each of our mail systems old about 10,000 domains, avg domains has about 5 to 10 mail boxes, now take that by avg. spam we all get everyday and the bandwidth and server load starts to add up very fast.. :laser:

If there was a way to make it like SA user config, so they can turn it on and off it might be ok, but still the load and bandwidth issue. In the long run it may cut down on bandwidth over all.

[admin]

This is the only system I know of that "might" work for us, but we have never tried. http://tmda.sourceforge.net/